PinkCouture

But I agree, that the racism is different for different groups - I´ve seen this myself several times and heard it from many friends.

The next thing - maybe I´m lucky, but so far I´ve never experienced this "white male dominated society" - ok, I´ve heard many people talk about it, but those were mostly women who could never do better than just complain about everything and say how things can´t be done instead of how they could be done, or lazy women who just complained to excuse their own incapability to do better, or some gypsies / Romes like to shout it into the television but when you give them work, they either steal or not go at all (and lately say things like "he wanted me to wake up early in the morning!!" and such insanities) becasue it´s better for them to use the social system, not work and still do better than most of the low class working people.

Maybe I just don´t notice these things, dunno. I know many people who made it from the poor (and even gypsies) to the high class society and really good job, so I think when one wants something and works really hard, anything is possible. I know... you may call me silly. I´m not rich, never attended to be, and I´m satisfied this way, and I know many (other ) people who are middle class or lower classes and are happy that way and would not change it ever.

I guess it´s just about perception, dreams, will, and hard work - but I do not deny the existence of racism, of course. It´s just too much complex theme, complicated in one way, easy in the other. I thank you both for these deep explanations... I have to think about it a little bit.

It is a complex topic so I understand why you would feel confused. I am glad you are willing to at least think about it

I am only speaking from both mine and those around me's experience in American society. It might be very different in Europe. I don't know, I have never been to Europe...yet

American private and public sectors are dominated by these groups: Patrician (mostly white) Americans, Asian-Americans (Japanese, Taiwanese, Korean, Chinese), Indians (from India..), Russian immigrants (particularly in engineering, mathematics, and science), Hungarian Jews, Jews of other types. Smart people.

The other ethnicities (including other groups/ socioeconomic classes of white people) are not as well represented.

I´m just so confused now... need to think this through.

But I agree, that the racism is different for different groups - I´ve seen this myself several times and heard it from many friends.

The next thing - maybe I´m lucky, but so far I´ve never experienced this "white male dominated society" - ok, I´ve heard many people talk about it, but those were mostly women who could never do better than just complain about everything and say how things can´t be done instead of how they could be done, or lazy women who just complained to excuse their own incapability to do better, or some gypsies / Romes like to shout it into the television but when you give them work, they either steal or not go at all (and lately say things like "he wanted me to wake up early in the morning!!" and such insanities) becasue it´s better for them to use the social system, not work and still do better than most of the low class working people.

Maybe I just don´t notice these things, dunno. I know many people who made it from the poor (and even gypsies) to the high class society and really good job, so I think when one wants something and works really hard, anything is possible. I know... you may call me silly. I´m not rich, never attended to be, and I´m satisfied this way, and I know many (other ) people who are middle class or lower classes and are happy that way and would not change it ever.

I guess it´s just about perception, dreams, will, and hard work - but I do not deny the existence of racism, of course. It´s just too much complex theme, complicated in one way, easy in the other. I thank you both for these deep explanations... I have to think about it a little bit.

Real problems are job market structures, and other economy related issues.

I largely think that in New York Metro, 'racism' is a very exaggerated, tired 'problem', Pink, a lame excuse for personal failure, a refuge of liberal college education,sociology courses, literature writers, and reading the New York Times, Harpers, & New Yorker. No amount of government intervention or literature writing will change that. It's exaggerated. It doesn't match what I have seen in the real world. This is however, a white dominated country by a white majority. which is expected. Indeed, it was not so progressive thirty years ago.

On average, Asian-Americans (including Indians) make more money than most whites, btw. So do foreign nationals that come here through the brain-drain. Now, there is a talk of a 'glass ceiling' for women, and 'bamboo ceiling' for Asians in big corporations, and even a cottage industry of executive career consultants that help them win internal politics against the old white men that have been rotating around C-suites for the last ten years of their career. Wait twenty years, and the dead will rotate out of the cycle.

All humans are a mass of biases, some more than others. I don't even think 'Race' anywhere approaches the unfair vitriol one would produce against an ugly, physically awkward, or overweight person.

And one could stop using 'Race' as an excuse for oneself...and realize that there's no such thing as 100% cosmic justice, equality, or fairness in this world. And that women and minorities have made enormous strides over the last thirty years, mostly out of their own merit and P & L contribution. There are better excuses than 'Race'.

I agree with you, there are lazy and very capable people in the minority population who are mooching off the government. There are also those who are not and doing the best they can to better themselves and advance in life, but cannot b/c of societal restrictions. I also agree with you that job market structures and the economy contributes to the issues. Even that is a complex topic that has many layers. It is hard to say THAT is the culprit.

Obviously we live in the White dominated society b/c the majority is White. That's not the point. The point is those who has the upper hand (the majority) rarely consider the minority. Why should they? They have the control, opportunities and resources. Society benefits them and they want to keep it that way. Which is why there are laws and regulations, like Affirmative Action to try keep the majority in check and to make it more of an equal playing field for everyone. It is far from perfect and there are opportunities for improvements. It is a work in progress

Where did you read Asian-Americans & Indians make more money that Whites? I am interested Although I must say I am bit skeptical. Perhaps in some industries they do make more money but not overall.

Race is not an excuse. People have this idea racism rarely exist anymore and that we live in a fair and equally society where if you work hard you will succeed. That is not true. It mainly applies to the dominate population and not to the minority. That is not to say a minority that works hard won't make it. A minority can work equally as hard as a White person, but chances are the White person will get a ahead b/c, once again, they are the dominate population.

Just to reiterate I am speaking from both my own personal experiences and observations, and from those I interact with. I am not trying to convince or "educate" anyone of anything. I am just providing a perspective to consider

It's funny you should ask that. Just this morning i was speaking to a german girl that i met in Bali. Only spent about 3 days together. But since we've been back we have always flirted with idea of going traveling together in a sorta dream esque way Anyway today she was like wanna come along with me this summer, we might do India. And i am kinda considering it. In the mean time i might do a teaching course, maybe i can work out there for a bit. Certainly more chance working there then here Although i do have a wedding to attend to in the summer ( not my own that be funny...saying i do then fucking off with a german girl stright afterwards ) So who knows what will happen

You said you wanted to visit India, right? It would nice to have a hot & flirtatious as travel buddy

So you are considering teaching in India?

My response to Jennka's post is pretty much in line with my empirical knowledge, institutional knowledge, and personal experience.

I can imagine what you're saying if you're talking about an atomized town center in the mid-west but as for seats of power- global power at that, like in Washington or New York, I find the conditions to be much different. The military however, is very white dominated (even though there are and have been many minority & lady Generals and so forth).

The 'power relationships' in this country- as far as the 'white' element goes, does not center around whole racial groupings. It is 'Class'. 'Class' is a much bigger divider than 'Race'. An individual that reeks of the working classes will throw themselves into a disadvantage, when endeavoring, no matter the color of their skin. For instance, A refined minority from the UAE that brings skills onto the table will supersede a white person from Brookyln (w/equivalent skills) anyday. In fact, cultured Arabs are sought quite frequently. Some kind of physical aura, the culture, the accent, maybe. Urbane African men & women have a similar mystique.

It's all variable. But coming into the interview looking like the 'Average White Man' mouth-breather will not impart much advantage.

And of course, class often confirms a passage. One of the 'unfairest' gatekeepers to the best opportunities in my view- in our society..is the Ivy League. And, of course, high finance.

I agree with you, there are lazy and very capable people in the minority population who are mooching off the government.

Race is not an excuse. People have this idea racism rarely exist anymore and that we live in a fair and equally society where if you work hard you will succeed. That is not true. It mainly applies to the dominate population and not to the minority. That is not to say a minority that works hard won't make it. A minority can work equally as hard as a White person, but chances are the White person will get a ahead b/c, once again, they are the dominate population.

There was a 25 year period during/post-WW2 where labor shortages were the norm. People of low skills, (illiterate Black youths & black women at that time )readily put themselves to work back then and their industrial employers readily trained sub-par human capital. But their choices are, as today,... that they would get paid minimum wages in dead end jobs then they would be as rational actors be and choose the dole.

I don't believe in concepts like laziness, incapable, or 'hard work'. I believe in 'smart work'. Smart work is inspired, it gets something better done; Hard work, just for the sake of it, is the morality of Slaves & time-servers. People who are incapable can become capable. Many organizational builders would say that the top 5-20% of their people produce 80% of the results. Nevertheless I am optimistic about people. They can be re-engineered, re-designed. But increasingly, we live not in a society of people but a society of organizations. So economic superstructure comes first, then social relations & society. Innovation & Entrepreneurship follows.

The 'economic superstructure' part, as of now, needs a lot of work but that's a different discussion. So I'm saying that, to avoid turning this into an economic policy debate, I'll shift back quickly to the social sciences....

The point is those who has the upper hand (the majority) rarely consider the minority. Why should they? They have the control, opportunities and resources. Society benefits them and they want to keep it that way. Which is why there are laws and regulations, like Affirmative Action to try keep the majority in check and to make it more of an equal playing field for everyone. It is far from perfect and there are opportunities for improvements. It is a work in progress

People gather around like-mind individuals, all the time, it matters not if they are fair-haired or black-haired or share the same second language or ethnic culture or have the same rich people interests or the same long legged women fetishes.

In this case, it is 'the same rich people interests'.

AA, to my understanding, actually works against Asian-Americans because their marks are above average. Nevertheless, it's still an inherently 'conservative' (adjective) instrument that is integrated into the Universities (and thus the post-Uni Job hunting Game), and one could have much to criticize about the scope and actual use of higher education today. It is conservative because it focuses on opportunities directed towards the static equilibrium- what currently exists today.

Where did you read Asian-Americans & Indians make more money that Whites? I am interested Although I must say I am bit skeptical. Perhaps in some industries they do make more money but not overall.

I grew up in a town that was 20% AA. My college class was 50%, and my subsequent employments had perhaps 10-40% AA. If you ask me about race, I say that a wide grouping of races and two classes (upper class & upper middle class born) dominate positions of moneyed influence and power today. The front offices of financial services in New York are multi-racial.

AA/Indians have superior academic records and have higher incomes. That's why they're called the 'model minority'. The only problem with these two groups is that they enter the upper middle class/lower upper class fairly easily but have a harder time breaking into the highest level. Indians seem to be more successful than the orientals. There are many that hold high positions in a wide variety of organizations.

Just to reiterate I am speaking from both my own personal experiences and observations, and from those I interact with. I am not trying to convince or "educate" anyone of anything. I am just providing a perspective to consider

Guess we'll close it up soon as it is not the most pleasant or relevant topic to talk about anyway...

Eh, not a whole lot really. Plenty busy with work though <_<

What about yourself?

What do yo do for work?

I have been busy with work and dealing w/ some personal stuff. Same shit different day.

I might be coming down w/ the flu. It really sucks b/c I got a flu shot a few months ago

Sorry to hear

I'm a graphic designer - how about you?

It's funny you should ask that. Just this morning i was speaking to a german girl that i met in Bali. Only spent about 3 days together. But since we've been back we have always flirted with idea of going traveling together in a sorta dream esque way Anyway today she was like wanna come along with me this summer, we might do India. And i am kinda considering it. In the mean time i might do a teaching course, maybe i can work out there for a bit. Certainly more chance working there then here Although i do have a wedding to attend to in the summer ( not my own that be funny...saying i do then fucking off with a german girl stright afterwards ) So who knows what will happen

You said you wanted to visit India, right? It would nice to have a hot & flirtatious as travel buddy

So you are considering teaching in India?

Yeah i've always had it in mind to go to India. Sure it would be nice to have her along We got on well for the short time we spent together

Everything is taking into consideration. I found out from early on into my first trip that it's absolutely pointless to plan. It never works out the way you thought. ( i am not even going to buy a return flight. As I don't have clue where i'll end up ) You never know who you're going to meet or what will take your fancy at any given time

I agree that the term "race" and "racism" is used mostly as an excuse or political maneuverism... like here, you never hear the normal working people (no matter what skin colour they are) to talk about racism towards them or some kind of "unfair treating" - but what the hell, show me someone who once in his life have not experienced some kind of "unfair treating" - because frankly, this world is a hell lot of shit and unfair thing - not more than any other normal working people... the only ones that scream and shout about racism are either politics prior to elections or gypsies (and by gypsies I mean those inadaptable people living in slums).

I´m only speaking about Slovakia, because I´ve never been to USA... but this is the situation here.

But damn, this is just too complex - when it goes to getting job, it´s much easier for a quite pretty girl to get a job than a regular young man... recently I get the feeling that it is much easier to ANY girl to find a job quicker than a regular guy. So are these guys disadvantaged or what? For example, I earn more than my boyfriend, at least for now - he is quitting his job because they refused to pay him better (for the amount of things he had to do and that shitty boss he has - a woman, btw - I actually marvel at how long he holded on) and he is a regular white man, lol.

Shit just happens, no matter which colour you are... that´s what I think

Is there anything to be said for forming an evil corporation instead? I've always secretly wanted to join one and valuing profits above ethics is something I could really see myself getting into.

BZ is already an evil "corporation" Unfortunately we are not the ones who are profiting from it.

Where do I sign up for a share of the profits?

Sharing profits?? Count me in

There are definitely people that are profiting from this site. Again, us three are not one of them As for signing-up, I don't think it is possible b/c that would require a higher profit split

Now I'm even more intrigued...

...Guess we'll close it up soon as it is not the most pleasant or relevant topic to talk about anyway...

I think we should move on to more important topics like Kim and Kanye's relationship or the specie of Snooki's baby!

Anyways, how have you been?

Sorry to hear

I'm a graphic designer - how about you?

I am a graphic designer too but obviously not as hardcore or skillful as you

Yeah i've always had it in mind to go to India. Sure it would be nice to have her along We got on well for the short time we spent together

Everything is taking into consideration. I found out from early on into my first trip that it's absolutely pointless to plan. It never works out the way you thought. ( i am not even going to buy a return flight. As I don't have clue where i'll end up ) You never know who you're going to meet or what will take your fancy at any given time

I love how you are so open-minded and free spirited about your adventures As a very wise man name Leonardo DiCaprio (ok, technically it is "Richard" and Orbital) once said, "Just keep your mind open and suck in the experience...You hope and you dream but you never believe that something is gonna happen to you. Not like it does in the movies. And when it actually does you expect it to feel different. More visceral. More real..."

Best of luck to you. Can't wait to hear all about!!!

Shit just happens, no matter which colour you are... that´s what I think

I agree shit happens to everyone---some more than others. We do the best we can to progress

BTW, how have you been?

Now I'm even more intrigued...

Oh Pinky...thx for the name change

^ You are welcome

Adriana is eating chocolates and cryin' a river...

Poor, poor Lima...well, plenty of more chocolates

and tissue for her then.

^ It's the chocolates in the the first place that made you leave her

Well....part of it was that I admit But lets not forget the main reason

^ Hey, I don't blame you. If I were you I would go for a younger chick as well. Just wish she wasn't barely 18